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[Music]

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dr nick this malpractice committee has

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that's of course the simpsons and

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today's show

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does dive into what some people see as

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medical quackery

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and what other people see as cutting

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edge

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conspiracy science here's a clip

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published in nature three years ago

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again in 2016.

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in 2016 he was on this he can give you

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all the stats on the camels and

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how many of the camels had the virus and

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how many camels had the

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the antibodies and then you know so he's

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been doing that work for ten years

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so he didn't just picture show you the

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picture here

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is alex right alex right now show me the

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show me the picture flat earth science

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that's what the flat earth guys do they

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say

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hey i've i can't see the the rest show

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me

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explore controversial science and

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spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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today we welcome dr tom cohen to

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skeptico

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tom is the author of showing it here on

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the screen

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a simon schuster book mind you

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the contagion myth why viruses

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including coronavirus are not the cause

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of disease and this is a book by the way

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you know if you look down in the corner

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here there's a little

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click button for barnes and noble and

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amazon and if you click

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amazon you'll see that

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the page is not found this is a book

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that has been banned on amazon

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imagine that i think that's that might

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be

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the most interesting part of this story

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so the central

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the the central premise of tom's book

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the contagion myth

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is that coronavirus doesn't exist

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which i have to say when i first heard

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it during my interview with david

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ike who is someone who i really respect

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but i know david doesn't always dig into

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the science or get the science right

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but when i first heard it it had a real

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flat earth

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kind of ring to it like you know like

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a reverse conspiracy over-the-top

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conspiracy claim

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so when one of your representatives dr

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cohen

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pinged me and said hey would you like to

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have a chat with this guy

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i jumped at the opportunity because i

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think this is

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really an interesting topic to talk

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about so thanks for joining me

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thank you it's actually uh just a few

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corrections it's

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cowan not cohen did i say i i keep

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saying that yeah it's cohen i'm sorry

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i'm sorry it's collin

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i'm sorry but you can call me tom

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that'll make it easier

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the other thing just as a note it was

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that actually

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published by simon schuster it was

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published by a company called sky

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horse and i think simon schuster is

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technically the

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distributor not the publisher

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okay well i i just think it's

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fascinating that

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simon schuster is put their name on the

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book

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by

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amazon i think that's amazing but

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i do have to say i mean just coming

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right to it

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the central premise the coronavirus

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hasn't been

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isolated in a lab is just

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i mean you're not serious about that are

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you i mean that's just kind of flat

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earth thing i got

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so many i can show you some of the so

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let me uh let me start that if i would

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by

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yeah go ahead if i can respond to that

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uh

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and i'll tell you how this came about if

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you want but

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let me just read from this was a

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january 2020 cdc bulletin

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on basically make a testing for

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sorry this was a published sorry this

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was published in european surveillance

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which is a

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major european epidemiology journal and

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they say quote this is january 2020

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quote the ongoing outbreak of recently

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emerged

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novel coronavirus poses a challenge to

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public health

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laboratories as virus isolates are

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unavailable

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further they say in in the problem of

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of developing a test because these

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virologists were tasked with developing

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a test for this virus

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and again let me quote from the actual

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study this is in peer-reviewed

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scientific literature quote we aim to

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develop and deploy

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robust diagnostic methodology for use in

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public health

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laboratory settings without having

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virus material available

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in other words they were tasked and they

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spoke about the challenge of developing

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a test

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when they actually didn't have any virus

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available to make a test

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for and i can imagine that that was in

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fact

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challenging because if somebody said i

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want you to make a test for a unicorn

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it would be nice to at least see the

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unicorn

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now that's not the only one because

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in the um cdc

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bulletin from 2020 now we're talking

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july

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so this is later this is the cdc and

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again i'll

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quote since no quantified virus isolates

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of this

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2019 stars coke ii virus

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are currently available in other words

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that's the cdc

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saying we have no isolates we have never

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isolated purified and seen this virus

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so i i could go on because a group of

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of of us who've been working on this

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actually emailed and communicated with

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the six top articles that say they

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isolated

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and characterized and purified the virus

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and in writing all of them admitted

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that they never actually isolated and

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purified the virus

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in writing so those are simply the facts

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and i can tell you how we got there if

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you want but i'll let you

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sort of guide the conversation here okay

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well this guy who i thought was

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interesting because he's from the

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university of saskatchewan

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and i like saying saskatchewan so i use

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him but he's also one of the top

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virologists in the world and

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you know daryl what's his name falzoran

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belzerano he's up there in saskatchewan

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so he isolated the

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virus but more importantly like in 2016

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i doubt that he isolated the virus if he

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did

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he should immediately let the cdc know

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that he did that

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because the cdc is under the impression

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that they actually have never isolated

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the virus

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well i i don't think there he is in his

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lab

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i don't think he's keeping it a secret

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well then i can tell you i could

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review his paper and demonstrate that in

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fact he couldn't possibly have isolated

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this virus

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there we go there we go i love it so

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you realize this is a guy published in

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nature obviously one of the top science

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journals in the world in 2016 mind you

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on his work he's a virologist and you

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know

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part of the reason i guess why he got

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pulled into the covit thing is he did

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all this work with camels

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strangely enough you know there's all

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these viruses and animals that sometimes

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cross over

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and there's all these viruses in these

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camels that are

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look like the tsars so he was over there

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studying that for years and years

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he's an expert he has a lab like this

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and he has all these people in his lab

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and the idea that he is so grossly

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incompetent which would really be we

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would have you know you guys up there in

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canada like matt

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we could go sue this guy probably make

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millions if he

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is falsely claiming that

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he got the material which he said was

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very difficult to get at the beginning

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and then he isolated the virus if he's

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falsely making that claim

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gosh let's go at him but again it just

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doesn't seem likely that this guy in

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this lab published in nature woke up one

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day and kissed his wife

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goodbye and said okay now i'm going to

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go falsify a bunch of science

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that i built my whole reputation and my

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whole life on

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[Music]

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again we have the six most important

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papers

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all of which claim they isolated and

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purified the cyrus cove

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ii virus some of them were published in

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nature

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and new england journal of medicine and

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my

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team actually emailed them because we

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could tell from the paper

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that there was no possible way they

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isolated the virus

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all you have to do is actually because i

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could describe if you want

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how we isolate and demonstrate a

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purified virus

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it's very clear that they didn't do that

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the reason they didn't do it is because

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they changed the rules

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so whether he's deliberately doing that

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or not

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i don't know but they all admitted

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publicly

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and in writing which you could tell from

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the

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couldn't

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possibly have isolated and purified the

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virus

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just what did what did daryl say when

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you uh

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when you talked to him i don't remember

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whether we talked to him or not i don't

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remember

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if he was the lead author of one of

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these six papers

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he's one of the top the idea the i the

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idea

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that there's these virologists

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professional virologists like i say

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let me interrupt you here because if

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we're going to be talking about who said

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what

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then this conversation is not going to

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be productive

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if we want to talk about the science and

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how a virologist

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demonstrates isolation and purification

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then your listeners might learn

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something if you want to try to ask me

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why he's doing what he's doing i have no

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idea

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because i've never talked to the guy

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yeah but the point is

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he's saying you're full of crap he's

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saying i got a sample

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i isolated the virus he's even saying

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that since he does work with

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animals that he then you know injected

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the virus that he isolated into a

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certain

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species of monkeys which i don't know

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how i feel about that but these monkeys

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then demonstrated all the

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symptoms of covid so no he's he's saying

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hell from just this looking at this

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highlight that you're putting there

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that his his way of isolating

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is using surrogate markers which are

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completely invalid as anybody who

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understands the science would know

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so this guy doesn't understand the

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science that's what you're saying

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he has a misconception

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so this guy exactly why he has a

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misconception

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if you want if you don't want you can

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just stay with an argument about who's

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right and then nobody will get anywhere

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well tom dr tom that's what this

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is it's an argument about who's right

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and you're claiming you're right

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and this guy's claiming he's right so i

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don't know how we would break it down

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any other way but this guy who tell you

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how to break it down

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this guy no this is how science is

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done that's why virologists say we got

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this

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thousands of virologists around the

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world who study this stuff

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why are these people claiming that none

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of these folks

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know what they're doing or you're

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claiming they're all part of some

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conspiracy which

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hey the the reason i'm concerned about

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this is there are some really

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legitimate questions about how this

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covid thing has been rolled out the

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science behind it

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how it's used to prop it up and i am

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really really

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concerned about the way science has been

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mishandled on the covid thing

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but this idea that they haven't isolated

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the virus

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i mean flat earth stuff

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i think we're at an impasse here

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impasse indeed i'm going to cut it off

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there and i do want to thank

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dr tom cowan for joining me today on

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skeptico

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i think it's great that he was willing

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to come on

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in and talk about this stuff and i'm

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certainly supportive of him

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having that opportunity i can't believe

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that amazon

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banned his book you know later we talked

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about that he's had other

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best-selling books on amazon i don't

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care

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what you think of this guy's

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interpretation of this science

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we have reached an absolute new level

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within this cancel

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culture where people aren't up in arms

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that they're banning books just

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unbelievable but the other point i guess

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that i would

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rant on and i probably will rant on in

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future episodes because it's gonna be

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coming up again and again

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is this flat earth science thing and one

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of the advantages i think i have in

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going through the drill

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with skeptico from the beginning from

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jump street with dean rayden and that

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phony baloney yale neurologist

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skeptic dr steve novella do you remember

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one of the very first

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episodes of skeptical with him

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and dr ray hyman from oregon since

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deceased

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were laughing about dean raiden and

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laughing about his work

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and laughing about his published

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research and i remember i told you at

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the time

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and i told you in the first book that i

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wrote that i i'm

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interviewing these guys and i'm like oh

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they're right and dean rayden must be

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wrong because no way they'd be laughing

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at this guy's science

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the point is if you're not always

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on that edge of doubting whether or not

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this edgy science this frontier science

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is right or wrong

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then i don't think you're really in the

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game but the flip side of that

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in my opinion is this

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dr tom cowan you haven't proven it to me

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no tom the job is for you to prove it to

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us if you believe against all common

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sense

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and logic that this virus hasn't been

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isolated

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even though they're spending billions

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and billions of dollars

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developing a vaccine which would be

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impossible if they hadn't isolated the

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virus

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and even though they're competing not

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only within

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these multinational big pharma companies

406
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but they're competing with

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other countries like china has a vaccine

408
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russia has a vaccine

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they're all trying to get a leg up on

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the other ones to get a competitive

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advantage

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all that is dependent on the idea that

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they have successfully

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isolated the virus at the very minimum

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so if you're going to go against that if

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you're going to be

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quacky andrew kaufman

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and you're gonna stand up and say that

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you can't do this flat earth thing where

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you say

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oh well prove it to me prove it to my

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satisfaction that you've isolated the

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virus

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no you prove it to us you stand up

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like dean rayden stood up and do

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20 30 experiments publish him in peer

427
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review journals

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get other labs to replicate it get other

429
00:16:54,389 --> 00:16:51,360
people with inside the community

430
00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:54,399
to support your work forget this

431
00:16:58,230 --> 00:16:56,480
flat earth you gotta prove it to me

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00:17:01,990 --> 00:16:58,240
because i can't see it this

433
00:17:04,710 --> 00:17:02,000
extreme empiricism it's just a joke

434
00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:04,720
and i feel like i need to point it out i

435
00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:06,000
did another interview with

436
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:07,760
matt bellaire who was kind of riding

437
00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:11,039
shotgun in this one but didn't say much

438
00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:12,799
and i'll kind of point you to that in

439
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:14,640
the notes and you can see it

440
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:16,319
it's just kind of one of my personal

441
00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:19,039
little crusades here because i think

442
00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:22,559
there's so many interesting real

443
00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:25,600
hard conspiratorial questions regarding

444
00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:26,799
kovid

445
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:28,640
but this notion that they haven't

446
00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:30,400
isolated the virus

447
00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:33,600
to me that seems like

448
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:37,280
it just seems like a psyop to me it just

449
00:17:41,350 --> 00:17:40,240
unknowingly i mean cowan doesn't know

450
00:17:43,669 --> 00:17:41,360
it's a psyop

451
00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:43,679
kaufman doesn't know it's a psy up but

452
00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:45,520
they're letting that idea out there just

453
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:48,480
to divide the conspiratorial

454
00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:51,280
community if you will into thinking flat

455
00:17:54,470 --> 00:17:52,720
earth

456
00:17:56,070 --> 00:17:54,480
okay that's a long rant i never usually

457
00:17:58,789 --> 00:17:56,080
do these but i felt

458
00:18:00,710 --> 00:17:58,799
it necessary in this case if you have

459
00:18:03,909 --> 00:18:00,720
any thoughts on that

460
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:03,919
let me know i'm dying to hear otherwise

461
00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:05,840
stick around i got some more good

462
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:08,080
skepticos coming up they won't all be

463
00:18:14,190 --> 00:18:09,120
like this one